Yesterday, Monday 26 May 2008, we organized our first JavaBlackBelt contributors' e-meeting.
These notes give a taste of the topics discussed for the ones who could not attend, and give a base for continuing the discussion in for forums until the next meeting.
e-Meeting Tools
We tried to connect via Skype in a group of 15. It has been a disappointing experience of unusability, and we switched to a written chat mode. For such a large group discussion I've the impression that text is more appropriate. Voice would be appropriate for one way (speaker to listeners) presentations or for much smaller groups (up to 4, probably). I'd give-up voice and go with text for the next meeting. We need another tool than Skype: something centralized with some kind of central URL to connect to.Screen sharing worked better I think, while we'll probably find improvements needs in further meetings. Keeping the same URL and announcing it upfront is a must.
Continue discussion on forum: http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/list/63.page
Way of Working
John started the meeting by describing the way he proposes we work (spoken, before we switched to text chat). To summarize, instead of having a formal layer of moderators and another formal layer of administrators, we would work more on a task/project mode than role mode.We'd keep the notion of exam leader, maybe with more turnover.
We'd work on an iteration basis of 2 or 3 weeks, using some Scrum
tools/concepts.At the beginning of an iteration (a sprint), we define tasks that we want to be done (for Scrum specialists: we would not start with the notion of story immediately). These sprint tasks are visually sticked on a virtual notes board
. This board has the advantage of being very visual. Maybe a more DB/list tool like banana scrum will be more suitable in the future, that's to be discussed from past experience, after this first sprint.During the sprint, people select tasks (yellow notes) that they want to do. They put their name on it (tag) and move it in the "in progress" column of the board. They also change the color of the note, to orange. When the task is done, they move it in the "done" column of the board and change the color to green. Then they select another task (note) if they want to.
At the end of the sprint (2-3 weeks), all the notes/tasks are supposed to be done by the team.
For example, Eric Wendelin has taken the task "LinkedIn group" during the meeting. At the end of the sprint, if there is no pending linkedIn group request, then the task will be done. The note with the title of the task is not enough for Eric to know what to do. I need to grant him access to linkedIn JBB group management too. Somebody who know how to do that task need to coach/help Eric.
Many tasks will need to be detailed/discussed somewhere. A set of wiki pages and the forum will probably be good tools for doing that. Let's start with a JavaBlackBelt wiki page
. The problem is that editing is limited to moderators. We might need to setup a better solution for sprint 2.Continue discussion on forum: http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/list/64.page
Next Exams
During the meeting we named the following:- Groovy
- EJB 3 Intermediate
- Scala
- SOA
Continue discussion on forum: http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/list/65.page
Black Belt & ProgTasks
Programming Tasks (new kind of exam) is for us the mandatory last step to release the black belt.The UI for programming tasks has worked, but needs improvement. We'll evaluate that, put it on the development planning and communicate on it. The main stopping problem for having prog tasks is not the content, it's related to the platform that we develop.
In another sprint, we'll add a task: boost the content of the black belt prog task.
Continue discussion on forum: http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/list/66.page
Moderation Process
We discussed how "to put more questions into the freezer" (in other words, how to increase the questions quality).I described a possible moderation process where we don't vote on questions, but we report concerns about questions. A question having been viewed (answered) enough times without concern reported would be promoted from the beta state to the released state.
When question has a reported concern, it goes to a working Q. After 30 days, if nobody fixed the concern (by editing/changing the question), it goes in the freezer automatically (this last word is damn important). This also fixes the problem of questions remaining in the repair zone with the current moderation process.
When a question in the working Q (or the freezer) is edited (fixed/improved), it goes back where it comes from (beta or released).
Examples of (pre-defined) concerns include: "This question contains code that is too easy to copy/paste/execute", or "The explanation of this question is poor/incomplete".
In the discussion, we did not answer: "Should the voting system really disappear?" (as it's not used to move questions from the beta/incubator to the released/exam state anymore).
Continue discussion on forum: http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/list/67.page
More Beta exams takers
An exam may need some time to get enough beta questions, but usually, the exam leader can boost questions creation. To move these questions to the released state/zone, we need to attract enough viewers to take the Beta exam. Currently, they vote on questions and make them move to the released state. This can take a very long time on some exams. How to make more people take beta exams?We've talked about rewarding votes (what if the vote system disappear, what if people vote always 5 stars without reading the question, just to get points,?) for example.
Continue discussion on forum: http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/list/67.page
Next Meetings
We are happy of this meeting/discussion and would like to schedule such e-meeting regularly. Let's start with the two next meetings.When would you like to have them (day of the week and GMT time, for example)?
Continue discussion on forum: http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/list/68.page
e-Meeting chat transcript.
It doesn't tell everything that happen (sound, screen sharing image, tempo) but it gives you a taste.(6:34:41 PM) John Rizzo says: Hi Man !
(6:34:43 PM) John Rizzo says: Please click the link below to join my Glance session:
http://javablackbelt.glance.net?key=0975
(6:34:51 PM) Nicolas Mee?s says: hello there
(6:38:39 PM) John Rizzo says: I can hear you well too !
(6:39:13 PM) John Rizzo says: Great !
(6:45:37 PM) *** John Rizzo has changed the chat topic to "e-Meeting JavaBlackBelt"
***
(6:50:02 PM) John Rizzo says: Hi Dmitry
(6:50:12 PM) John Rizzo says: It's better.
(6:50:19 PM) John Rizzo says: I've background noise.
(6:50:33 PM) John Rizzo says: Who is it (no head set?) ?
(6:51:01 PM) John Rizzo says: Hi Dmitry, are you using headset ?
(6:51:26 PM) John Rizzo says: the background noise disapeard for 1 sec.
(6:53:28 PM) John Rizzo says: Can you see this ?
(6:53:35 PM) mwanji says: yes
(6:53:36 PM) Nicolas Mee?s says: yes, i can
(6:53:58 PM) *** mwanji added alexandru enache, Dmitry Buzdin, Eric Wendelin, jonhnnyweslley, Oleg Chubaryov to this chat
***
(6:54:13 PM) Eric Wendelin says: Excellent. I can see it
(6:54:14 PM) John Rizzo says: Hello
(6:54:26 PM) alexandru enache says: I see it too now
(6:54:31 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: I see too
(6:54:32 PM) jonhnnyweslley says: hi
(6:54:46 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: this one looks better
(6:55:07 PM) John Rizzo says: This chat is the good ont.
(6:55:08 PM) John Rizzo says: one.
(6:55:43 PM) John Rizzo says: Who is not having a helmet speakers ?
(6:55:54 PM) John Rizzo says: Just to know.
(6:55:56 PM) *** mwanji added Nicolas Brasseur to this chat
***
(6:55:56 PM) *** Nicolas Brasseur can't be added to this chat due to his/her privacy settings
***
(6:56:13 PM) alexandru enache says: me. but I cannot use the microphone from the headphones
(6:56:17 PM) John Rizzo says: Ok.
(6:56:25 PM) alexandru enache says: I'm working on this now
(6:56:48 PM) John Rizzo says: If there is some echo, while you don't speak, please turn the micro off (micro icon on skype).
(6:59:08 PM) John Rizzo says: I'll speak in 10 seconds. If you don't hear me, we (you) have a problem ;))
(6:59:20 PM) Eric Wendelin says: yes
(6:59:22 PM) alexandru enache says: me to
(6:59:29 PM) jonhnnyweslley says: me to
(6:59:51 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: hear you
(6:59:57 PM) Nicolas Mee?s says: i hear you fine
(7:00:04 PM) Oleg Chubaryov says: hear you good
(7:00:29 PM) John Rizzo says: Please click the link below to join my Glance session:
http://javablackbelt.glance.net?key=0975
(7:00:55 PM) alexandru enache says: I see it
(7:01:00 PM) John Rizzo says: Good.
(7:01:45 PM) John Rizzo says: Whe cannot see my screen ?
(7:02:45 PM) Nicolas Mee?s says: I see it
(7:02:48 PM) Eric Wendelin says: I cannot yet
(7:02:55 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: I do see
(7:02:58 PM) jonhnnyweslley says: I see
(7:03:53 PM) *** mwanji added Stefan Zafirov, Piotr Smolinski, Valentin to this chat
***
(7:06:43 PM) John Rizzo says: Please click the link below to join my Glance session:
http://javablackbelt.glance.net?key=0975
(7:07:07 PM) Valentin says: yes
(7:07:25 PM) alexandru enache says: I cannot make the mic work. I will have to type
(7:07:58 PM) John Rizzo says: Stop speaking john and let's start !
(7:15:12 PM) Valentin says: ok for me ;)
(7:16:03 PM) alexandru enache says: I hear interferences
(7:16:17 PM) Valentin says: same here
(7:16:35 PM) *** mwanji added benediktsattler, Mateusz Kwasniewski, David Ulicny to this chat
***
(7:16:45 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: silence
(7:16:47 PM) Valentin says: is someone calling from the Space Station ?
(7:16:48 PM) mwanji says: john, i'm not sure people can hear you
(7:16:51 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: everyone should be on mute unless they are currently talking
(7:16:56 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: I have been disconnected
(7:17:00 PM) benediktsattler says: yes
(7:17:05 PM) John Rizzo says: Mee too.
(7:17:06 PM) mwanji says: there's a lot of background noise coming from someone
(7:17:14 PM) benediktsattler says: sounds like mars mission
(7:17:20 PM) John Rizzo says: Yes ;)
(7:17:26 PM) Eric Wendelin says: I report that David Ulicny is speaking...
(7:17:28 PM) John Rizzo says: I've no idea of what you understood :)
(7:17:33 PM) David Ulicny says: I don't hear anything, complete silence.
(7:17:38 PM) John Rizzo says: Mee too
(7:17:40 PM) benediktsattler says: i hear some keyboard noises
(7:17:45 PM) mwanji says: i can't hear david
(7:17:52 PM) David Ulicny says: I'm not speaking :)
(7:17:53 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: and John's echo
(7:18:41 PM) mwanji says: ok, john is back
(7:18:44 PM) alexandru enache says: yes
(7:18:49 PM) benediktsattler says: yes i hear him
(7:20:55 PM) Oleg Chubaryov says: i cannot hear anything... :(
(7:21:05 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: me too
(7:21:09 PM) alexandru enache says: no one is speaking now
(7:21:16 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: i hear ringing
(7:21:18 PM) alexandru enache says: i think
(7:21:26 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: well not right now but before
(7:22:28 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: should we hang up and rejoin?
(7:22:53 PM) John Rizzo says: I'm "connecting..."
(7:24:10 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: glance has disconnected for me
(7:24:24 PM) Oleg Chubaryov says: me to
(7:24:32 PM) John Rizzo says: Please click the link below to join my Glance session:
http://javablackbelt.glance.net?key=0914
(7:24:38 PM) mwanji says: sorry about the disconnection
(7:24:55 PM) John Rizzo says: This is the new glance session.
Please click the link below to join my Glance session:
http://javablackbelt.glance.net?key=0914
(7:25:08 PM) John Rizzo says: sorry guys ... we are experiencing.
(7:25:16 PM) John Rizzo says: I'll continue by written chat.
(7:25:21 PM) John Rizzo says: The good old way...
(7:25:27 PM) John Rizzo says: I hope everybody can read this.
(7:25:31 PM) David Ulicny says: yes
(7:25:32 PM) Valentin says: yep
(7:25:33 PM) Jonhnny Weslley says: yes
(7:25:36 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: yes
(7:25:37 PM) benediktsattler says: yes
(7:25:38 PM) Mateusz Kwasniewski says: yes
(7:25:42 PM) Eric Wendelin says: yes
(7:25:43 PM) alexandru enache says: yes
(7:25:44 PM) John Rizzo says: Did you get my screen back ?
(7:25:48 PM) mwanji says: yes
(7:25:51 PM) Valentin says: yes
(7:25:54 PM) David Ulicny says: no
(7:25:56 PM) Oleg Chubaryov says: yes
(7:26:01 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: yes
(7:26:07 PM) John Rizzo says: David, did you try the new link ?
Please click the link below to join my Glance session:
http://javablackbelt.glance.net?key=0914
(7:26:13 PM) Jonhnny Weslley says: I' m ready
(7:26:21 PM) John Rizzo says: Ok. I continue ;)
(7:26:26 PM) David Ulicny says: will try
(7:26:39 PM) John Rizzo says: So, What I propose is to work on a more "taks/project" oriented way.
(7:26:48 PM) John Rizzo says: Than the previous "role" oriented way.
(7:27:02 PM) John Rizzo says: In the past, we had administrators with a role, for example
(7:27:11 PM) John Rizzo says: "moderators care",
(7:27:23 PM) John Rizzo says: to do the same kind of things during months.
(7:27:52 PM) John Rizzo says: Working now an interative way, would give you more flexibility to participate like this or like that, this iteration or antoher.
(7:27:58 PM) John Rizzo says: What do you think ?
(7:28:28 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: It depends on the kind of tasks...
(7:28:43 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: right, please give the full list of tasks first :)
(7:29:12 PM) alexandru enache says: it's a better approach, but the new task moderators should know exactly when to change the phase of a certain task or not
(7:29:49 PM) alexandru enache says: this implies a deep understanding of task phases
(7:29:57 PM) John Rizzo says: About the list of tasks, it would come from the team at the beginning of an iteration.
(7:30:20 PM) John Rizzo says: We'll need some peer-work to give each other help about details of tasks.
(7:30:32 PM) benediktsattler says: yes sounds like an more effective way but only with well defined task
(7:30:42 PM) John Rizzo says: I'm not going to decide the tasks list.
(7:30:50 PM) John Rizzo says: I give you an example.
(7:31:16 PM) John Rizzo says: One of you see that we've many exams that probably should be released because there are enough questions in them.
(7:31:23 PM) *** mwanji added Aymerc Levaux to this chat
***
(7:31:29 PM) John Rizzo says: This guy can propose at the next iteration to
(7:31:48 PM) John Rizzo says: review all Beta exam to check if/when they should be released.
(7:31:50 PM) John Rizzo says: That's a taks.
(7:32:08 PM) John Rizzo says: and that's a post it on the iteration post-it board on my background
(7:32:11 PM) John Rizzo says: .
(7:32:31 PM) John Rizzo says: Who will take that task ? That's another story.
(7:33:00 PM) John Rizzo says: Ideally, one of you says: "oh that! I want to do". and takes the task.
(7:33:07 PM) Valentin says: I got the idea. So would there be some kind of board where we should post task ideas and priorize them ?
(7:33:28 PM) John Rizzo says: Yes, there would be 2 boards.
(7:33:36 PM) John Rizzo says: One with all kind of tasks men think about.
(7:33:57 PM) John Rizzo says: One for the current iteration of the selected tasks to be done (priority) during this iteration.
(7:34:24 PM) Valentin says: gotcha
(7:34:30 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: so before we were more involved on all tasks about a given exam, (call this vertical), now we would be involved on a particular taks across
all exams (it would be more horizontal) (7:34:35 PM) John Rizzo says: In scrum, the non-iteration, large panel of tasks is the "backlog"
(7:35:09 PM) John Rizzo says: What do you think Stefan ? Maybe should some people still be responsible of an exam ?
(7:35:29 PM) John Rizzo says: The idea is not to suppress exam leaders, but idea is to let anybody do other tasks.
(7:35:33 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: It may require more knowledge to be able to handle cetain tasks across all exams
(7:35:53 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: I see, so its just more open to receive help from others
(7:36:13 PM) Eric Wendelin says: I suppose we would have to pick only tasks that we are capable of completing
(7:36:18 PM) David Ulicny says: sorry guys, gotta go, generaly I like this idea. bye.
(7:36:24 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: The leader can still perform all the tasks on his exam
(7:36:38 PM) John Rizzo says: Eric: capable and wanting to...
(7:36:50 PM) John Rizzo says: Stefan: yes. I would say so.
(7:36:52 PM) Eric Wendelin says: Well of course you have to want to as well
(7:36:58 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: I would have to agree with this approach
(7:37:16 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: I would say that in this approach it would be easier for people to jump in. Having not read the forum for quite along I do not know what is
happening now (just an example). (7:37:45 PM) *** mwanji added Michiel Dollenkamp to this chat
***
(7:37:54 PM) alexandru enache says: I agree with dmitry
(7:38:00 PM) benediktsattler says: yes and it may be a better way to share the ammount of work
(7:38:08 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: and the knowledge
(7:38:31 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: (think backups)
(7:38:39 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: I think it goes well with JBB philosophy of doing things
(7:38:53 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: the question is whether the tool is flexible enough regarding user rights and merging of changes and so on.
(7:39:17 PM) John Rizzo says: I've given a few example tasks on the board (which you can see without seing my screen, with the url).
(7:39:26 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: I think it proved usablity
(7:39:47 PM) alexandru enache says: this kind of tool is usable. it resembles to bpm(bussines process management) tools
(7:39:56 PM) alexandru enache says: which has an increasing success
(7:40:17 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: it'll need some bit of tuning of course, but in the end it'll be very beneficial I guess
(7:40:26 PM) John Rizzo says: I'd like to go on with 2 subjects with you.
(7:40:38 PM) John Rizzo says: 1. What tasks, and setup a 1st 2-weeks iterations.
(7:40:54 PM) John Rizzo says: 2. Discussion of things you would improve on JBB platform.
(7:40:55 PM) mwanji says: are two-week iterations long enough?
(7:41:12 PM) John Rizzo says: Maybe not, you make a point Mwandji. We can start with 3 and tune.
(7:41:24 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: do we need to audit who transitions which task to where ?
(7:41:46 PM) Eric Wendelin says: I think that if we make it too long it might cause delays
(7:41:50 PM) John Rizzo says: I would do it agile to begin, Valentin, like real post-is on the wall
(7:42:01 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: ok
(7:42:56 PM) John Rizzo says: The post-it things is very visual. But if you prefer we can use a more list-oriented tool (with more features) like banana scrum. I suggest to
start with the post-it and to adapt after each iteration. (7:43:13 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: makes sense to me
(7:43:39 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: how do we use the post it, is it integrated into the main site now or is it separate?
(7:43:45 PM) alexandru enache says: question: do you want to create a tool that allows you to do this task related work and incorporate it in JBB or use some existing tool?
(7:44:11 PM) John Rizzo says: I suggest to start with the postit boad that you see on my screen. linoit.com.
(7:44:20 PM) John Rizzo says: Go to : http://linoit.com/canvas/JohnRizzo/JavaBlackBelt%20Community%20Scrum
(7:44:32 PM) John Rizzo says: Everybody can see it and I can make people able to update it.
(7:44:35 PM) Jonhnny Weslley says: it's good
(7:44:35 PM) alexandru enache says: nice
(7:44:38 PM) mwanji says: I think in the long term this kind of thing will be integrated to JBB, in a very different way, but in the short-term it's best to keep it outside
the site (7:44:39 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: it's cool
(7:44:55 PM) John Rizzo says: I give you an example.
(7:45:07 PM) John Rizzo says: do you see the top left note ? e-Meeting.
(7:45:11 PM) alexandru enache says: yes
(7:45:13 PM) John Rizzo says: I'm doing it, so it's in progress.
(7:45:19 PM) John Rizzo says: Let's move it to "in progress".
(7:45:37 PM) John Rizzo says: It's moves.
(7:45:51 PM) John Rizzo says: Let's change to color to make it clear that it's in progress.
(7:46:07 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: nice
(7:46:12 PM) John Rizzo says: Let's say that John is busy on it.
(7:46:13 PM) alexandru enache says: very cool tool
(7:46:31 PM) John Rizzo says: So everybody can see what I'm working on.
(7:46:43 PM) John Rizzo says: I'd like to "fill the auction room" too.
(7:46:55 PM) John Rizzo says: I see the post it but I've no detail about that task.
(7:47:05 PM) John Rizzo says: I move the mouse on it and see who made the post it.
(7:47:46 PM) John Rizzo says: I don't remember how to do that ;)
(7:47:53 PM) John Rizzo says: It's possible...
(7:47:58 PM) alexandru enache says: only we can see
(7:48:02 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: Sorry, have to go. Besides I do not know much about the current JBB state and tasks much (have not been there for a while). But when the
task list will be created I will definetly take a look and try to find something I like. The only thing I can suggest for the tasks to be small. Not just "Clear all exams of
bad questions", but "Clear exam B, category C out of bad questions". Otherwise it is impossible to share them imho. Another thought would be for the JBB contributors to estimate how much effort they are going to spend in the next iterations. Make it in hours/days or bananas, but it is really needed to create expectations of what can be
achieved in three weeks. Tasks can be estimated accordingly.
(7:48:02 PM) John Rizzo says: Is it more concrete to you.
(7:48:02 PM) alexandru enache says: who created it
(7:48:10 PM) alexandru enache says: yes John
(7:48:55 PM) Eric Wendelin says: I pretty much agree with Dmitry on all points there
(7:49:06 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: same here
(7:49:21 PM) John Rizzo says: Yes, Dmtry. We probably need another place to discuss/define details of task.
(7:49:25 PM) John Rizzo says: The forum ?
(7:49:30 PM) John Rizzo says: A wiki ?
(7:49:44 PM) Eric Wendelin says: The forum I think would be more interactive
(7:49:45 PM) mwanji says: an email group?
(7:49:57 PM) Mateusz Kwasniewski says: the forum is a better place for that
(7:50:01 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: would be nice to start the forum and continue via link to wiki.
(7:50:07 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: forum is better than email, you can subscribe to forum via email if you want
(7:50:12 PM) Jonhnny Weslley says: a forum is better
(7:50:17 PM) Dmitry Buzdin says: bye :)
(7:50:34 PM) mwanji says: bye, thanks for coming
(7:50:36 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: vye dmitry
(7:50:52 PM) John Rizzo says: The start of an iteration begins with the definition of the tasks. Maybe we can move to this topic ?
(7:50:53 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: wiki is good to define basic tasks, forum for discussing them
(7:51:26 PM) John Rizzo says: I can make a tour of what I think needs to be done.
(7:51:37 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: please share...
(7:51:37 PM) John Rizzo says: Maybe one of you want to bring something also ?
(7:51:40 PM) John Rizzo says: Ok.
(7:51:56 PM) John Rizzo says: The note "auction room" is a good one to start.
(7:52:47 PM) John Rizzo says: It's empty now. The task is very clear: select gifts that you think are good (discussion exists in the forum) and fill the auction room with 1
book/gift a week until august. (7:52:52 PM) John Rizzo says: (you can pre-fill).
(7:53:05 PM) John Rizzo says: Who would like to do it ?
(7:53:27 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: you want to assign ppl on tasks right away?
(7:54:03 PM) John Rizzo says: I just give an example. We can delay and continue the tour. Any question on that task ? (the one who takes it would have details of course).
(7:54:38 PM) John Rizzo says: Next one: LinkedIn
(7:54:47 PM) John Rizzo says: We've a linked in group with regular demands.
(7:55:10 PM) John Rizzo says: But we don't accept anybody. First we need to verify if the requester is blue or brown belt (or not).
(7:55:49 PM) John Rizzo says: I would give access to admin e-mail (requests) and LinkedIn group management to the volonteer wanting to do that during the iteration.
(7:56:15 PM) John Rizzo says: (I wait for Eric idea)
(7:56:28 PM) Eric Wendelin says: I'll take that task. I'm pretty active with LinkedIn
(7:56:44 PM) John Rizzo says: Good, you've it for this sprint (iteration).
(7:57:18 PM) John Rizzo says: We've new exams who are ready.
(7:57:24 PM) Eric Wendelin says: I see. So this is kind of a rotating task. I will only manage the LinkedIn group for 2 weeks?
(7:57:43 PM) John Rizzo says: Longer if you like. Maybe in 3 months you'd like to stop.
(7:57:44 PM) John Rizzo says: For example Valentin (who is in this discussion).
(7:57:57 PM) Eric Wendelin says: It seems some tasks are continuous and some are not
(7:57:59 PM) John Rizzo says: has made a JQuery exam
(7:58:07 PM) John Rizzo says: Yes Eric.
(7:58:09 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: Should we by default keep the person on the task until he wishes to stop doing it?
(7:58:16 PM) John Rizzo says: I don't know.
(7:58:24 PM) John Rizzo says: What would you suggest.
(7:58:41 PM) Mateusz Kwasniewski says: For the length of an iteration
(7:58:41 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: that could be evaluated as a short agenda point each meeting? (depending a bit on how many continuous tasks there are)
(7:58:41 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: I would think its simpler, less micro management on every cycle
(7:58:42 PM) Eric Wendelin says: Hmmm. I think that regular check ups should be made, but yes
(7:58:57 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: erm, each new iteration even... my bad
(7:59:21 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: thx stefa, that's what i meant..
(7:59:32 PM) alexandru enache says: I would suggest to make all tasks per iteration. after the end of the iteration if there is no one who wants to take the task, the last
task-manager can be re-assigned
(7:59:53 PM) John Rizzo says: It would make some automatic turnover.
(7:59:56 PM) Eric Wendelin says: That would work too, Alexandru
(7:59:57 PM) alexandru enache says: you can make a queue for an repetitive task :)
(8:00:03 PM) John Rizzo says: If we are too specialized, there is no backup.
(8:00:11 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: it makes sense that a new person should be able to take a task, otherwise someone can lock a task forever
(8:00:26 PM) John Rizzo says: Other task example:
(8:00:37 PM) John Rizzo says: Valentin has writtn good jQuery objectives.
(8:00:53 PM) John Rizzo says: Somebody needs to get its agreement to publish them,
(8:01:06 PM) John Rizzo says: then put them in the system (in the DB) via web pages.
(8:01:17 PM) John Rizzo says: Then create a news on the home page to announce it.
(8:01:23 PM) John Rizzo says: That's a basic cycle.
(8:01:29 PM) John Rizzo says: for an exam to be beta.
(8:02:05 PM) John Rizzo says: Idem for Struts 2 and JavaMail exam.
(8:02:10 PM) alexandru enache says: I think information about such basic and repetitive tasks should be published somewhere. or given access to them when a task-manager gets
assigned to such a task (8:02:30 PM) Eric Wendelin says: I suppose that is what the wiki can be used for
(8:02:32 PM) John Rizzo says: Yes, you are right. I'll do some coachin ;)
(8:03:11 PM) John Rizzo says: A contributor is not supposed to do a task alone. For example, in 3 weeks, maybe Eric can coach the next linkedIn responsible.
(8:03:21 PM) alexandru enache says: great idea
(8:03:27 PM) Eric Wendelin says: Sure
(8:03:30 PM) Jonhnny Weslley says: it's great
(8:03:42 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: that's a great way to share knowledge
(8:03:56 PM) alexandru enache says: yes. and also learn how to share your knowledge
(8:04:00 PM) John Rizzo says: Do you have other ideas of tasks (things you think should be done) ?
(8:04:03 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: i agree, sounds great
(8:04:30 PM) Eric Wendelin says: So like I mentioned earlier I would like to write some Groovy exam objectives
(8:04:51 PM) John Rizzo says: That's a great example of things to box into one iteration.
(8:05:29 PM) Eric Wendelin says: We can go ahead and put that on the post-it tool
(8:05:32 PM) Jonhnny Weslley says: I would like to write some Scala exam objectives, what do you think about it?
(8:05:41 PM) benediktsattler says: great
(8:05:42 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: go for it
(8:05:45 PM) Eric Wendelin says: ooooh Scala. That would be great
(8:06:18 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: Maybe something in SOA direction?
(8:06:24 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: ESB, etc...
(8:06:53 PM) Mateusz Kwasniewski says: yeah, we should even create a new category for dynamic languages
(8:07:02 PM) Jonhnny Weslley says: yes
(8:07:04 PM) benediktsattler says: Yes I think EJB 3 Intermediate is also important, because advanced ejb 3 objectives are not covered
(8:07:06 PM) Eric Wendelin says: Seems like something we can put in backlog if noone here can do it. Maybe other moderators can pick it up for this iteration
(8:07:22 PM) John Rizzo says: Yes, Eric.
(8:07:27 PM) Eric Wendelin says: other moderators that aren't here that is
(8:07:47 PM) John Rizzo says: It would be great to see a backlog discussion about "what's the next great thing to create on JBB"
(8:08:19 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: thats a recursive sentence :)
(8:08:22 PM) John Rizzo says: Then when starting a spring, we pick some tasks in the backlog according to the volonteers and the hottests topics.
(8:08:38 PM) Eric Wendelin says: Well I guess we just need an "Ideas" wiki or stickied forum topic
(8:08:40 PM) John Rizzo says: spint (not spring)
(8:08:43 PM) John Rizzo says: sprint
(8:09:24 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: What's he current status od programming exams?
(8:09:35 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: perhaps more on RIA? like flex etc.?
(8:09:38 PM) John Rizzo says: Good question Piotr.
(8:09:52 PM) John Rizzo says: You probably want to talk about the black belt...
(8:10:02 PM) John Rizzo says: ... it should be there a long time ago ;)
(8:10:23 PM) John Rizzo says: The ProgTasks (do everybody see what it means ?), have been working/.
(8:10:32 PM) John Rizzo says: And we think they need a better UI
(8:11:01 PM) Eric Wendelin says: It seems that the problem is that they are difficult to write
(8:11:03 PM) John Rizzo says: They are on our todo list. But I think we should not wait anymore to make it happen.
(8:11:13 PM) John Rizzo says: The platform is not ready.
(8:11:23 PM) John Rizzo says: I could write many question myself and
(8:11:32 PM) John Rizzo says: we don't need as many as for a regular exam.
(8:11:45 PM) John Rizzo says: I guess it's first a platform problem.
(8:12:03 PM) John Rizzo says: I guess you are waiting for the black belt ?
(8:12:03 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: Are there any issue list?
(8:12:16 PM) Eric Wendelin says: It's almost like we need a standard few programming problems and a few Admins/moderators that can judge
(8:12:17 PM) John Rizzo says: issue list with black belt ? or general ?
(8:12:28 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: How would programs be evaluated, manually or automatically?
(8:12:32 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: with programming exams
(8:12:56 PM) Eric Wendelin says: but that is more of a manual solution
(8:13:25 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: So I tried to write an example question a time ago, but JBB did not accept it
(8:13:32 PM) John Rizzo says: To make it clear for everybody, progtasks are exams with questions... non multiple choice.
(8:13:47 PM) John Rizzo says: You create a question by writing an incomplete/non-working program
(8:13:51 PM) John Rizzo says: and it's test suite.
(8:14:11 PM) John Rizzo says: People have limited time to fix the program and make the test pass (automatically, on the server).
(8:14:20 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: and of course referential solution
(8:14:28 PM) John Rizzo says: Yes.
(8:14:44 PM) John Rizzo says: We are waiting for that for releasing the black belt.
(8:15:05 PM) John Rizzo says: So we can say: to be a black belt, you had a least to code a few line ;)
(8:15:18 PM) Jonhnny Weslley says: Hi guys. I have to go.
(8:15:24 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: what do you mean by referential solution?
(8:15:28 PM) John Rizzo says: Bye Johnny, we are already overtime.
(8:16:09 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: Working answer
(8:16:25 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: that passes test suite
(8:16:37 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: are there any tasks we can fit into an iteration towards taken that step?
(8:16:48 PM) John Rizzo says: I suggest that we go on 15 more minutes and stop.
(8:17:08 PM) Eric Wendelin says: sounds good John
(8:17:41 PM) John Rizzo says: Michiel: we probably can improve/add questions for the black belt exam, while the JBB dev team develops the feature.
(8:18:05 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: sounds good...
(8:18:12 PM) John Rizzo says: There are 2 prog task exams.
(8:18:31 PM) John Rizzo says: The one I show you is empty. It needs question. that the missing exam for black belt.
(8:18:38 PM) John Rizzo says: http://www.javablackbelt.com/QuestionnaireDefDisplay.wwa?questPublicId=01597
(8:19:07 PM) John Rizzo says: Even if the interface is not ready, we can design/write questions.
(8:19:49 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: so each progexam has an equivalent exam in the multiple choice section where we can refer to the objectives
(8:20:10 PM) John Rizzo says: Yes. I think it's a good start.
(8:20:27 PM) John Rizzo says: Are there other topics/features you want to discuss.
(8:20:45 PM) John Rizzo says: What could best help you doing your contributor/moderator's job ?
(8:20:57 PM) John Rizzo says: How can we ease your life ?
(8:21:01 PM) alexandru enache says: some spare time :D
(8:21:34 PM) Eric Wendelin says: I think that more questions need to be in the freezer. I know I already brought that up to you John, but what do you others think?
(8:21:40 PM) alexandru enache says: from our daily jobs that is
(8:21:52 PM) John Rizzo says: I agree with you Eric.
(8:22:01 PM) John Rizzo says: Let me describe what I think would help.
(8:22:07 PM) John Rizzo says: Changing the moderation process..
(8:22:22 PM) John Rizzo says: Instead of voting on questions, people should be able to tell, from a list
(8:22:36 PM) John Rizzo says: if the question has 'concerns".
(8:22:57 PM) John Rizzo says: For example, a concern would be: "contains code too easy to copy/paste in an IDE".
(8:23:08 PM) John Rizzo says: or "explanation not complete enough".
(8:23:30 PM) John Rizzo says: When a question is marked with a concern, it goes into a "work Q" for 30 days.
(8:23:43 PM) John Rizzo says: If the author has not fixed the question (abandon) or
(8:23:45 PM) John Rizzo says: and
(8:23:58 PM) John Rizzo says: if no other contributor has fixed the concern,
(8:24:13 PM) John Rizzo says: then the question goes AUTOMATICALLY into the freezzzzer.
(8:24:18 PM) John Rizzo says: What do you think ?
(8:24:25 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: good idea
(8:24:25 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: sounds good
(8:24:30 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: would surely help improve the overal quality of the questions..
(8:24:32 PM) Mateusz Kwasniewski says: agree
(8:24:40 PM) alexandru enache says: who gets to tell if the new fix for the question is correct? maybe the fix sends the question back to working Q
(8:24:54 PM) Eric Wendelin says: My only problem with that is the rush of "concern"s we are going to get if we implement that feature
(8:25:13 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: Sorry guys I have to go. I think this session was very beneficial and we should definitely run this kind of brainstorming on a regular
basis. Thanks everyone!
(8:25:19 PM) John Rizzo says: Alex: you make a point: I didn't tell "when the question is ready for the exam zone".
(8:25:29 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: bye valentin
(8:25:30 PM) alexandru enache says: bye Valentin
(8:25:35 PM) benediktsattler says: bye
(8:25:36 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: bye guys
(8:25:58 PM) John Rizzo says: If the question is "fixed" and goes from the working Q, to the beta state, it's not released yet.
(8:26:03 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: John you should keep the log of this session and we should keep it somewhere for future reference
(8:26:03 PM) benediktsattler says: yes that would be too much
(8:26:20 PM) John Rizzo says: We probably need a "time", or "amount of views" without concern declared to make the quesiton released.
(8:26:29 PM) benediktsattler says: we must be able to sort the questions or something
(8:26:33 PM) John Rizzo says: Yes Val, sure, I'll write a summary.
(8:26:38 PM) Eric Wendelin says: ok, amount of views works for me
(8:26:46 PM) alexandru enache says: I agree to that too
(8:26:49 PM) John Rizzo says: Benedikt:
(8:26:54 PM) benediktsattler says: yes
(8:27:07 PM) John Rizzo says: yes, if a good quality (rcognized) contributor
(8:27:08 PM) Valentin Crettaz says: Maybe just "Select All" + "Copy Selected" so we can see who said what when ;)
(8:27:18 PM) John Rizzo says: sees the question, and says "that's a good quesstion",
(8:27:26 PM) John Rizzo says: then we should make something with that information.
(8:27:32 PM) John Rizzo says: It should help the question someway.
(8:28:08 PM) Eric Wendelin says: I'm just not sure that I can see voting going away completely
(8:28:09 PM) benediktsattler says: This can help us to sort the questions that need to be fixed from the better.
(8:28:17 PM) alexandru enache says: maybe the views should be from users with a certain belt
(8:28:28 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: do you mean shortening the path?
(8:28:34 PM) alexandru enache says: so in this case the question can get a bit more credibility
(8:28:38 PM) Mateusz Kwasniewski says: Alex, that's a good point
(8:28:40 PM) John Rizzo says: Eric: yes, and I don't know how.
(8:28:51 PM) alexandru enache says: in wheater it should exit or not it's freezing state
(8:28:54 PM) John Rizzo says: Good point Alex.
(8:28:56 PM) benediktsattler says: yes but it would be better if the questions get rated per succeded examns because a high belt can also have minor knowledge in some areas
asked at jbb (8:29:22 PM) John Rizzo says: Alex: to get out the freeze state, somebody has to change the question.
(8:29:38 PM) Eric Wendelin says: The only difficulty there is getting people to take enough beta exams
(8:29:49 PM) alexandru enache says: by freeze state is was reffering to the "work Q" state you mentioned. sorry for the confusion
(8:30:00 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: maybe beta exams should reward ppl in some way
(8:30:11 PM) John Rizzo says: Yes. Eric. How to improve it. Some topics take long time to get enough views (even with the current system).
(8:30:12 PM) Eric Wendelin says: like more contribution points?
(8:30:21 PM) benediktsattler says: yes this would motviate people to take them
(8:30:28 PM) Mateusz Kwasniewski says: maybe taking a beta exam should give users some discount when taking a real exam
(8:30:37 PM) Eric Wendelin says: maybe both
(8:30:58 PM) alexandru enache says: I don't agree with both
(8:31:07 PM) Mateusz Kwasniewski says: why?
(8:31:46 PM) alexandru enache says: well if the user gets rewarded for taking beta exam he will get enough money to take the real exam at the actual price
(8:31:58 PM) Eric Wendelin says: Either way, giving a bunch of contribution points to beta exam takers would improve quality tremendously I think
(8:32:30 PM) Eric Wendelin says: then we don't have people making bad questions for points and more people vote on the questions that are available
(8:32:43 PM) Mateusz Kwasniewski says: exactly
(8:32:48 PM) benediktsattler says: yes but the given points should depent on the ammount of ratings made, because otherwise people making beta exams only for getting points
and nothing gets improved (8:32:50 PM) alexandru enache says: I personally do not see the usefullness of having both
(8:33:09 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: perhaps making exams more expensive and proividing more contribution points on beta would increase the total beta exam takers without
loosing the balance?
(8:33:14 PM) Eric Wendelin says: Ok then, how about we approach it from "more points for votes"
(8:33:25 PM) John Rizzo says: Guys, I'm very happy with today's discussion and aplogize for the cahotic start. I propose to finish now, so next time you won't be afraid to
come because of the length. I'll copy/paste discussion parts into the forum and I encourage you continuing the discussion in the forum.
(8:34:06 PM) Eric Wendelin says: ok sounds good, go make that "ideas" wiki John!
(8:34:33 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: thanks John, it was a good discussion everyone, lets do it again sometime
(8:34:43 PM) benediktsattler says: yes
(8:34:52 PM) John Rizzo says: Thank you again guys. I send mails and post things tomorrow. I'll schedule the next meeting too (and change tools ;).
(8:35:07 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: ok sounds great
(8:35:07 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: Could you schedule regular meetings?
(8:35:25 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: regular meetings would be a good thing I think...
(8:35:37 PM) John Rizzo says: Yes. I'll schedule the next 2 one. I'll post a discussion on the forum to see what date (week-end?) and hour (timzone).
(8:36:09 PM) benediktsattler says: ok I will no go, goodbye
(8:36:21 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: Goodbye benedikt.
(8:36:34 PM) Michiel Dollenkamp says: And everyone else ;)
(8:36:40 PM) Mateusz Kwasniewski says: Goodbye everyone
(8:36:45 PM) John Rizzo says: Good bye.
(8:36:45 PM) Eric Wendelin says: Goodbye all
(8:36:48 PM) Piotr Smolinski says: bye
(8:36:49 PM) Stefan Zafirov says: goodbye everyone
(8:36:50 PM) alexandru enache says: bye guys
(8:36:53 PM) Oleg Chubaryov says: bye everyone
(8:37:07 PM) *** Michiel Dollenkamp left this chat
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(8:37:20 PM) *** Oleg Chubaryov left this chat
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(8:37:27 PM) *** Eric Wendelin left this chat
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